Northern Lights

The witty and handsome Darrin Stevens is married to the witty and beautiful Samantha Stevens. Darrin, who is straight, blogs at http://mortalrealm.blogspot.com; Samantha, the gay half of this mixed-orientation marriage, blogs at http://bewitchedtoo.blogspot.com. They’ve been married now for almost twenty-two years and have three children. Darrin refers to the past twenty-two years of marriage thus: “As the frog says, ‘Time’s fun when you’re having flies!’”

BEN: When and how did you find out about your wife’s attraction to the same sex? How did this revelation affect your decision to marry or stay married to her?

DARRIN: This is not so simple. My wife says that she told me when or before we got married. I don’t remember that. She admits that she may not have been too direct in the conversation. So I didn’t really learn until several months ago. But by then we were both very deeply involved with many other people who have same-sex attraction. I had learned a LOT about it in the preceding year and come to love and appreciate our new friends. I had also learned a lot about my wife’s sexual molestation as a child and the problems and issues stemming from her childhood. All of these things contributed to my thoughts and feelings about her same-sex attraction. In addition, the way that she treated me, before, during and since then, has never changed, nor has it ever been negative. Considering the personal issues she was/is dealing with, I was not too surprised by this revelation. And since we have begun to associate with others who are attracted to the same sex, we have actually gotten closer in our relationship.

So here are the nutshell answers. I found out after about 20 years of marriage. It did not affect my decision at all to stay married. There was not even any hesitation. It (the revelation) did not mean that our relationship was any different. It could continue to be great.

It’s interesting that you say you’ve gotten closer to each other since you’ve begun associating with others who experience SSA. Why do you think that’s the case? It seems to me that many people would be concerned with their same-sex attracted spouse forming bonds with others who are also same-sex attracted; what is it that makes these friendships a strength in your marriage?

Yes, I can see how most people would be concerned about their relationship with their same-sex attracted spouse. However, we started working on this together, before I really understood that she was also same-sex attracted. Also, she was not really associating with other women, she was associating with same-sex attracted men. She does associate with a few women, but fuses to get close at all. She has never given me any reason to be concerned. I think the most important aspect of this experience is that this is something we are doing together. It is not just her, it is not just me. It does not seem like I am very involved in all of this, but I really am. Sometimes it might only be vicariously, her telling all about everyone and everything, sometimes I directly interact with others. But there has never been anything in our marriage that we have both been involved with together like this. She may be the only one of us with same-sex attraction, but the experience belongs to both of us.

Nutshell: we are both deeply involved in the whole experience, and the associations she has formed are completely shared with me. (I have become friends with all her friends.)

How have your experiences with Samantha and your newfound same-sex attracted friends affected your understanding of homosexuality? What did you know two or three years ago and what do you know now?

It seems like there is so much that I have learned, but I suppose it is just a few very grand things, with some variations.

It used to be, for me, and for others still, that the only people with same-sex attraction that anyone would hear about were those that were coming out of the closet and going to go live the gay lifestyle. So in essence, being gay was evil. Even closet gays were doing evil things, just secretly. I did not know, as I do now, that feelings are different from behavior. I now understand that a person, any person, can have particular feelings and inclinations, but they may not necessarily act on those feelings, even homosexual feelings. It is behavior that gets us into trouble, not feelings. It is our feelings, however, that cause us emotional trauma.

I also learned that there are varying degrees of same sex attraction and that some people can learn to live with it easier than others. Some people with SSA can even develop and maintain heterosexual relationships successfully.

I have learned that EVERYONE IN THE WORLD is messed up to some degree, in one way or another, and that people with SSA usually have certain developmental issues, or are lacking certain developmental conditions, which, when mixed with a combination of particular character traits, affects, strengthens, increases, or leads to SSA. (See Jeff Robinson’s theories.) (I don’t completely understand this complexity, but I do understand that it exists and is different for each person.) For those that want to “deal” with their SSA, they must first take care of some or all of the other problems and issues in their life. (See David Matheson’s theories.) I believe that people with SSA are generally a bit more sexual than heterosexuals.

I always knew that homosexuality was not genetic, that people were not born with it. But I did not know that it does occur, or develop, naturally. I learned that it is not a choice. Rather, though the behavior and actions of a person may be a choice, their feelings are not. I learned that it is not contagious and that gay people are not going to try to make me or my kids gay.

I have also learned that no one person has all the answers. But I have learned that some people, through extended research and experience, have found some of the answers. And I have learned that although SSA may develop naturally, it is not natural and does not “work” in nature. And I have learned that at least some people can be “changed” or can change to some degree. That degree of change will be different for every person with SSA. And I know that this change will take time, work, counseling, probably other forms of help, and still more time.

I have also learned that people with SSA can be quite wonderful and lovable. In fact, people with SSA often need more love than those that do not have it. And that’s okay. I have learned that both men and women with SSA are completely different and have extremely few similarities. One of the few similarities is that they both need “positive male relationships” in their lives.

And I have learned that people with SSA can have a testimony of the Gospel, can serve worthily in the Church, and can feel the Holy Spirit and have strong testimonies, even though they have SSA. I have learned that ceasing pornography and masturbation will NOT change one’s feelings of SSA, and that those things are just evil and wrong regardless of sexual tendencies. I know that righteous living will not change someone’s feelings of SSA, but it will help them to deal with it better or more easily. I have seen that members of the Church who strive to live righteously are more blessed and strengthened than those who do not (both heterosexual and homosexual).

Okay, I just hit a mental block. But that is mostly it. I admit that I may not understand things correctly, and I know that there is a LOT more to same-sex attraction than I have seen and learned so far. I hope to learn more. Whew.

It seems that among the same-sex attracted people you and Samantha associate with are several men who are married heterosexually. In your observation, are there significant differences between your marriage and mixed-orientation marriages where the man is the one with SSA?

I guess I never really thought about that. I cannot really see many differences between those marriages and mine. It is much easier to see the similarities. While the personalities are certainly quite different, when it comes to the marriage and the issue of SSA, all us hetero spouses seem the same to me. We are all very supportive, very much in love with our SSA spouses, and we are very much involved with the same SSA people and activities that our spouses are. It is something we all do together. Our spouses do not do anything without us, or without us knowing about it. We are completely an integral part of their SSA lives.

I think this is why our marriages are mostly successful. We actually do know of mixed orientation marriages where the wife is not a part of the husband’s SSA dealings and associations. I do NOT see those marriages as successful, nor do I see them lasting very long.

Truly, I really do not see our mixed-orientation marriage as being any different than the other mixed-orientation marriages where the wife is completely involved in and aware of the husbands SSA stuff. But then again, many people say that I am very “different” in that respect, meaning that I am very different from most “guys.”

Having met you, Darrin, I imagine people say you’re “different” in all sorts of respects. :) I say that jokingly, of course, but I do wonder if you perceive any qualities in yourself–and perhaps in other straight spouse–that make you uniquely suited to succeeding in a mixed-orientation marriage? What are the innate talents and learned skills necessary to be happily married to a person with SSA?

Oh that’s a tough one. There are, I suppose, three qualities I can think that are important, or that were significant for me.

First, I think it is very helpful to be completely open-minded. I really did not understand SSA, and once I heard of our friends’ struggles, I really wanted to know more. (I still want to know more.) Somehow all my stupid, prejudice, ignorant thoughts and opinions left me and I started over, looking for a new understanding. I love my wife and my friends, so I felt I HAD to be completely open.

Second, much like the first, I knew I could not pass judgment. My wife has always remained the most outstanding person I have ever known. And she didn’t change. Nothing changed. She was not going to leave me and our children. She did not begin to treat me differently. Our sex-life stayed the same (wonderful!). Our goals, standards, habits, and lives remained the same. It was almost just minor news, not a big announcement. More importantly, I knew that she was no worse of a person than me. I have faults and issues too. I am no better than her.

The third thing is a very strong desire to be involved - involved in her life, in her dealings with SSA, involved in our relationship, involved with others that deal with SSA. And we do it together. Online, it seems like she is far more involved in other people and other things, but I am (silently) right alongside her.

Perhaps the most important qualities are hers - her integrity, her strength and determination, her dedication to me and to our family, her continued strong testimony of the Gospel, her continuing to show me that she loves me. She never gives me any reason to question our marriage or her dedication. Also, her skills at communication are important. She makes sure that I know everything. She shares her experiences, her work, and her friends with me. This has been a fun adventure for both of us, not something for her to do alone.

Perhaps a fourth quality (though maybe it’s covered by the first and second) is your ability to recognize your wife’s positive qualities. That seems like an important aspect of any successful relationship but particularly in a mixed-orientation marriage where it might be easy to forget the positive in the face of the negative. Though I’ll agree with you that Sam probably makes it easier by having a lot of positive qualities to recognize. You’ve mentioned among her positive qualities a strong testimony of the Gospel. What role does religion play in your marriage, particularly in relation to your wife’s SSA?

Nobody is perfect. Really, nobody. Every spouse is going to have faults.

Religion does play a HUGE role in our marriage. From the very beginning, we decided there would be no reason to end our marriage. The Church and our testimonies of the Gospel are at the center of each of our lives. Because she remained strong in the church and committed to it when she came out, it meant that nothing was different between us. Her coming out was not an announcement that she was changing anything about her life. In fact, she made it a point to make sure that I knew she still loved me and our family and that she was staying with me, and that she was not leaving the Church.

The Gospel has also given us perspective. We know that this life is only temporary, and so are life’s challenges and problems. As long as we both remain faithful and worthy, we know we will be blessed. Maybe not exactly the way we want or at the time we want it, but it will happen. We have already been blessed far more than we have merited.

I suppose the bottom line is that the Church and the Gospel play a much more important role in our lives and in our marriage than SSA does. Putting the religion first has made it easier to deal with the SSA.

Can you tell when your wife is attracted to another woman? If so, how does that make you feel and what do you do about it?

No, I cannot tell when my wife is attracted to another woman. I think she keeps it hidden pretty well, and even tries to hide from herself in an effort to minimize such attractions. She really does make quite an effort to keep that under control. Quite frankly, her SSA is not at all apparent to me. She works very hard to maintain her standards and commitments, and so minimizes all temptation risks.

So I never feel threatened or jealous. For me, it has never been an issue that I have witnessed or had to deal with. As a result, there is nothing for me to do about it, except love her.

(By way of reminder, you are welcome at any time to say “pass” if you’re uncomfortable with a question.) How does your wife’s sexual orientation affect your sexual relationship? Are your needs met?

PASS!!! Just kidding. I suppose it is our sexual relationship that makes me think that Sam does not really act like she has SSA. No problems here - needs totally met. Our sexual relationship is GREAT.

If you had known (or remembered knowing, depending on whose version of the story we’re going with) about your wife’s SSA before you got married, or perhaps even before you started dating, how do you think the last twenty-two years would have been different for you?

It’s kind of funny. I am a Bishop of a student ward. Often I have young couples coming to me to announce their engagement, and then I am instructed to meet with them often until they get married. On the first meeting, there is a list of things I talk about with them.

One thing is communication. I tell them how “communication is very important in a relationship, especially in marriage. Females are usually less direct in their communication, expecting the male to ‘know what they mean’ and get the subtle hints they are giving. Males are usually very direct, even too direct sometimes, in their communication, and perhaps need to be more thoughtful about what they say to the female.” So a wife might say, “How are you feeling today, honey?” And what she really means is, “Why don’t you take me shopping!” On the other hand, a guy will reply to the question, “Does this dress make me look fat?” by saying “YES”, when what he means is “That dress makes you look fat.” What he should say is, “Hmmm … you know, that’s a pretty dress, but I like the blue much more.”

Before we got married, Samantha did tell me that there were differences about her, and even that she may not be able to bear children. Being the ignorant, selfish, hormonally-driven, dumb sack of male parts, I did not completely understand what she was telling me, and though I wanted to have children, I made it very clear that that was NOT why I wanted to marry her. I was (and am) totally in love with her and nothing else in the world mattered. NOTHING else mattered.

If I had completely understood about her SSA at the time, I still would have wanted to marry her. The difference would have been that I would have thought (ignorantly) that maybe she could be “fixed.” Even if I had known before we started dating, she is an AWESOME person, which I knew before we started dating, and I would have still longed to be with her. It would not have changed a thing.

As for the last 22 years, I really don’t think that would have been any different either. The first 2 or 3 years were pretty difficult at times, though, as it may often be for newlywed couples. I suppose that the SSA might have given either of us an additional excuse to end the relationship whenever there were other problems or disagreements. But of itself, it has never been an apparent issue in our marriage and has not been a reason for anything to be or have been different than the way things were and are.

I guess the one difference that it has made in our relationship is that I now know her a little better, and I feel even closer to her. And for sharing her SSA and the many things we have experienced that last 2 years with me, I love her even more.

Considering your role as bishop, this question may be more than hypothetical: If a young man or woman were to tell you that he or she is thinking about getting married to a person with SSA, what advice would you give? What should the couple consider before entering a mixed-orientation marriage?

That is very interesting question. I actually have a young lady in my ward that came to me and said she was divorced after 2 years of marriage and her ex-husband was gay. She explained that the divorce had nothing to do with his being gay, but she divorced him because he became quite abusive and wanted to leave the church.

I also have a few other people in my ward who are gay. I have already talked to a couple of them about marriage (those that are ready to talk about it). The advice I gave to them is the same as I would give to someone who is thinking about getting married to a person with SSA, and it is very similar to what I tell all engaged couples in my ward.

I tell them that EVERYONE has problems and issues. Everyone does. And you have to be able to accept the fact that your spouse will have issues and you need to make them YOUR issues. In a marriage, both spouses need to bear one another’s burdens. This is especially true for people that have SSA and want to be married to the opposite sex. The SSA partner should be completely open and very communicative to the other spouse. And the heterosexual spouse must be completely open, willing to listen, be very patient and empathetic, and still maintain standards. I tell them that though a person may have certain challenges or issues, there is no excuse for transgression, no reason to break the marriage vows. If they are going to make that commitment, they have to stick to it. It may be quite difficult at times, but if they are working together, it will be much easier. And if they are also living faithfully and worthily, they will receive additional help and guidance.

The main thing is that they must be very open, honest, and communicative about the SSA and any issues that exist in the relationship. And they have to work together. If it is an issue for one partner, it is an issue for both partners, and both have a responsibility to work with it.

Okay, now that might not be exactly how it has been in our marriage, concerning SSA. That is because she is amazing and now allowed to be an issue, or to become something that needed attention. Looking back, perhaps we should have given it more attention and work from the beginning. But we have stayed true to the covenants we have made to each other and in the Church, and that has greatly blessed our marriage.

Thanks for your thoughts, Darrin. I’m sure many others will enjoy hearing what you have to say as much as I have.